Julie + Melissa

HOPE + HALE IS JULIE ARMSTRONG OF THE HOPE EXPERIENCE AND MELISSA SMITH OF HALE BONE BROTH. TOGETHER, THEY HOST WELLNESS RETREATS AND WORKSHOPS FOR WOMEN. RECENTLY, HOPE + HALE LAUNCHED RETREATS FOR YOUNG GIRLS. LIVING CRUE SPOKE WITH THE DUO ABOUT HOW ADVOCATING FOR YOUNG GIRLS CREATES STRONG WOMAN.

Living Crue: Tell us how you got started with this wonderful idea.

Julie: During the pandemic we realized we needed to do something for young girls. And I thought Why don’t we do this for kids? We put it out there and it stuck. So many people needed it. The response was huge. It was right around vacation and so we just put feelers out there and all the parents were like “my child needs this, my girl needs this!” It was a space filler at first, but then we realized kids need this just as much as women need this right now.

Melissa: I think, just like Hope and Hale, we know how we’re feeling, we can identify with them. Julie definitely identified some of her daughter’s struggles in that tween age, and then I noticed changes in my daughter. I wanted to be like “hey what if we created a space?” This definitely transitioned into something that isn’t about age but about a group of people getting together-–including children—and putting them together to hear each other’s experiences… for people to connect, feel stronger.

As this came to fruition, I cried more with the girls (they didn’t see me) than I probably do with the women because there’s pure honesty, you know? We as women know how to protect our hearts, use our words. These children use pure honesty, even in their shyness.

Women can identify what they’re feeling when there’s pressure in the world. Kids have a very limited vocabulary. Do you tailor your program for women, who can have these complex words to describe the feeling, to these girls who may not be able to yet?

J: I think the biggest thing is setting up the stage for them. And we introduce the tools to help. We brought up conversations around nervous situations or feelings of being left out, and that created confidence and safety for them to be able to speak up. We heard, “this is how this happened at school” and “these bullies can ask me and I have no one to play with.” So we created a safe place. We got them calm, we got them in a circle, and then they felt OK to open up. So, again, I think it’s setting the environment to feel safe, then creating the space for them to speak, and giving them the tools to go with it. The yoga, the meditation, the journaling, the coloring—everything that made them feel more comfortable and connected. I started with a dance and got them to shake it out. I brought it to a level of childlike fun.

M: And sharing with them. Letting them actually make this connection that very simply, whatever age you are, we’re all in this together. Even if we think we’re alone or if we aren’t like somebody else. With the women it’s usually setting an intention or sharing a word. For the kids it was a favorite color. We would identify some people who have the same colors and they’re alike, but if you’re not alike, that’s OK, too! We want to coach them through [these feelings] and show them “See? We all are here, though.”

With [the women’s retreats] we ask,“Hey, has anybody felt the way she just expressed?” And the hands go up and there is a feeling of connection, that you’re not alone. In both age groups it’s the same set up.

The 2 skill sets that you can use are tactical: the journaling and then looking for gratitude and trying to ease the anxiety. Knowing that it’s OK to feel that way, there’s no shame.

That’s a tough one in this world. It seems intuitive that you don’t want to teach shame to your kids but what are the things that we identify that create shame? Our bodies? The way we speak?

M: How are we liked? We feel that if maybe somebody doesn’t like us there’s something wrong with us? Absolutely false! I saw a quote the other day that said “We’re not everybody’s cup of tea. And that’s OK.” If the children think they didn’t get included in something, they’ll think, “What’s wrong with me? “

I think what’s different now from when we were children is the pandemic and social media. But there are so many common foundational pieces. Being liked and loved. Having the space and safety to feel like you can be you and not feeling like you need to show up as somebody else. The pressure of a parent, like “I want you to do sports,” or “ I want you to do this.” These children feel all of that. They see it out front. What is success? A good student? An athlete? Maybe it looks like dressing a certain way? The group we hang out with?

This pandemic has brought on a ton of isolation. I think that when you’re in your own head we tell ourselves, as adults, a really tough story. Children also have that same negative self-talk. [My daughter] wants to be a perfectionist. The worst thing is that she’s not gonna be good. She’s a kid, she is still learning. So when she is not good at something that reel in her mind says, “You’re not good, you stink at that, you can’t do that.” That is like a type of isolation. Covid brought that on deeply for some of these kids.

J: Yeah, you can see it when they were able to run outside on the beach at Alice’s house where we held the event. They were all wearing masks inside, but when they got outside they were, like, free and they just started running. Some came as groups, others didn’t know each other, but they just all came together and had that connection and that experience with each other that they needed. It was so noticeable.

But it’s so interesting, as an adult I’ve learned to embrace myself, but you are telling these kids to embrace themselves now.

M: I was a shit show of a childhood and I only knew what I knew. And I say to Julie all the time, “What if I had access to this?” My mom loved me dearly, it’s just I was a poor kid with not a lot of resources and had to be very resourceful. That’s the other part of the power. Even if it’s someone like me, just a hustler trying to figure out life or someone who’s got a lot happening behind closed doors that no one talks about. These children—we watch some of them walk in with such a guard. But they have the access now to hear it. And watching that space open up a little … she starts to come out and be goofy and be fun. She wasn’t letting her anxiety get the best of her. We do these affirmation water bottles and we talk about fueling the inside like you would with water. Because what would happen if you didn’t drink water? You’d be tired, dehydrated, you’d get sick. But what if you refueled your body and your mind with positive affirmations? If you’re not afraid of things and not worrying about things? Watching them pick the stickers and look at the words—it was like we were feeding him with a hose of positive affirmations.

And they could come from a chaotic background, a great background, an I-don’t-know background, but they all need the same thing. They all need to be reminded that they are good enough, that they are beautiful. We ask them, “What are you grateful for?” And being kids living in the moment, the majority say, “I’m so thankful for this camp.”

That again, insert the tears. I guess my point to that is, we don’t know what’s going on at home, but they all show up similarly. And I wish we had the access when we were kids. Would that have changed anything? I do think there is power behind what we’re given.

What would it have been like if I were able to look back at my childhood self and talk to her?

M: It’s that Soul Project Stories question that we as adults should always ask ourselves and that’s why this whole story is so powerful, too “What would you say to your 12 year-old self?” And here’s the crux: I will tell you that straight up I don’t think I would change a thing! Because all of the stuff I went through? I have become who I am and I’m just as proud of me, because I think back and think if I hadn’t gone through all of that, I wouldn’t be sitting here.

We might have a different past and access would be great, but what we can do now is the most important. So I do believe it’s all necessary. But what would I tell my 12-year-old self? It would be, “Just be confident. Just be you.” And if a camp can give you that, cool, but you know what I did have? Me.

J: We plant seeds in their head, and that’s the biggest thing for me. When I am thinking about how to do this, for both women and kids, it is about planting seeds that they can fall back on. For me it was drinking. My mom planted a seed a long time ago. Telling me there is alcoholism in the family and I need to be aware of this. I remember thinking [when I stopped drinking] I know what to do now. Having these events and teaching these coping mechanisms is what I wish I had at 12 years old.

That’s why we created this—so that they have the opportunity to maybe skip some pain. It helps a little. It won’t change everything, but it certainly will help.

I wonder how much of this would’ve been even possible when I was a kid. We’re in a world right now that encourages self-love. This word didn’t exist 40 years ago. The concept just didn’t exist.

M: Oh, my mom didn’t do anything for herself. She’s Italian and lived in a time, you know, when you just do, do, do for the husband and the kids and you are last.

J: And you don’t talk about things.

So I don’t know if it was possible? Maybe it was.

How do you teach that It’s OK to change your mind between age 7 and 17? How do you create ambassadors of this concept?

J: We just start working to your very question. We had 2 girls that came to both of our events, one was 10 and one was 9. And we just noticed how much it was helping and how they felt. We were talking about how we need an ambassador of some sort to come to other events. Someone who can be there to help tell the other girls, tell them, “I’ve done this before. You’re gonna be OK.” So we asked these 2 girls to do that for the next one.

M: They would raise their hand and tell all the girls what their best moment from the last [retreat] was. We don’t have to tell them what to say. They can identify what they feel. It was so awesome. It’s all about the feeling.

We should all identify by what we feel, right?

J: The biggest thing with the children—and the women—is that everybody is feeling not alone anymore or not so different. This person feels the same way I do; you are you now because they are hearing other peoples experiences, and they know they’re not alone anymore. I think that’s the biggest thing—kids come from all different types of families, and some come feeling alone already. And even if it’s just for the day, because I’m sure they forget—we all forget—they feel better because they’ve experienced that feeling

M: It’s being exposed to things. It’s any sort of natural experience that you’re exposed to, even something that maybe was unexpected. You may not remember it, but know it’s possible. Internally, from even the youngest age, there’s a lot of talk about comparison. But when you’re in a group—this is definitely where Julie’s mastermind of this mission of Hope Experience comes through—when surrounded [by people], it is feeling that you’re not different, but somebody else is feeling the way you do. You don’t have to compare. Whether it’s I can’t read that well or I can’t play that sport that well or I don’t have a lot of friends, comparisons start at a young age. Especially with social media, status, and the identity piece. We don’t need to identify as anything other than what we feel. And that means it’s not stuck in writing from age 8 to 14. We can evolve.

You can experience bad things, too. We asked everybody, “have you ever felt scared or alone when you go into an event?” We got a lot of hands raised. “I’m going to new school.” “My parents got divorced.” “I’m starting a new grade.” What do you think you can do? “Well I hope I meet someone.” We noticed the majority of the girls in the group just want to be liked, to be loved, and to feel safe. Safe. Literally just safe in an environment. And the fear of the unknown—the “what ifs” But if we allow them not to worry about the “what ifs” and just experience it, look at the good that comes out of it.

J: If you could see what they look like coming in compared to what they look like at the end—just everything from their body language, to the way they speak, to how comfortable they are with each other. I mean, it’s that connection piece.

And coming off quarantine, they were all feeling isolated. It’s interesting to see how powerful that human connection is.

Is this specific to girls? Do boys need something different?

J: I have people email me saying their son needs this. And I’m not there yet. I feel like in time, now that I’m taking more courses, psychology courses, I feel like I’ll be able to learn more about that, but I’m comfortable with what we have now. They do need it, though.

Marci: So I have a thing: When did it become not OK to not be okay?

M: Honestly, this goes far back—and because I think it goes to maybe something you’ve experienced—we are trying to live by a standard set by society. Sometimes it’s fear of not being accepted and not being, you know, up to someone’s expectations. I think it’s… expectations. Whether they are external, like the societies we live in, or it’s internal, within our families. It’s that self-talk that we’re not good enough or it’s not OK because we don’t think it’s OK.

It’s not new. I do believe it’s been talked about more, to be not OK. I think things have been labeled, stigmatized. Therapy wasn’t really a cool thing, but getting therapy is amazing! Going to workshops to experience personal growth is amazing! But I am a late bloomer to that. I was always a curious learner and a hustler wanting more for my life. I love these experiences. But I would say late bloomers are common, because we don’t want that crack known. Because that would be a failure. You just have to grin and bear.

If you’re OK with not being OK, I think that’s where it begins.

Do the girls you’re working with feel that way? That it’s okay not be okay?

J: Definitely. I do think they are.

M: I think they’re more nervous. Embarrassed. Not being liked. Being made fun of.

Kids are finding out things—I feel like my own child knows much more than I ever did.

J: I hate to keep saying it, but it is a different world. I think that those fears are popping up. Even the children that you wouldn’t think have these fears, they are popping up for them, too.

What is happening? Bullying as a platform has been out there for years, but more so in recent years, right?

M: It’s louder now because the keyboard bully is out there. It’s more in your face.

J: I just feel like everything is more open now because of the social media platform. I follow a mom online who’s child committed suicide at a young age, and she posts about how she’s doing and what she’s doing. I just feel like everything is just out there. It’s just different.

Is it different? What has changed?

M: The world is different and it’s more intense because they have access to it faster and definitely more exposure. But I do think that comparisons have been there forever and are based on whatever we’re consuming, even if we’re consuming only what our parents tell us. But I think if you go back to the question of what do you do? You plant the seeds: “It’s OK to not be OK.” “Be confident in who you are.” “Be you and don’t be afraid.” It’s repetition. It’s repetitive support.

I can tell my daughter, until I’m blue in the face, how amazing she is. I think I’m doing an OK job as a parent. But she is struggling with her own thoughts. She told me that she’s really not connecting with people. She stays on the swings because “I’m too afraid to try to play nerd ball. I’m too afraid of going to ask someone to play because they’re gonna tell me they don’t want to.” When I ask why she thinks they’re going to say no, she says it’s because it happened once. She uses that thought to avoid rejection and just goes to the swings every day.

My husband said, “You have to be OK that you were the girl that would be in the middle of nerd ball with everybody around, but she’s a little bit more hesitant and nervous. You have to be OK with her figuring it out a little bit and just keep planting the seeds. The more you keep telling her to try this or that, she’s going to think she’s broken.” My husband told me that.

That is really powerful.

M: I am a little emotional. I’m dealing with that right now. I’m teaching positivity children’s workshops and my daughter cannot figure out how to feel less anxious at recess because of her own thoughts. What I can do is create the environment and give her the tools, the words.

J: I grew up in a house where everything was talked about. I was fortunate in that aspect. Therapy was there. My mom was a child of an alcoholic. She was going to meetings. She was on it and was an open book. So when mental health stuff came up with me, it was discussed. I see the importance of it, obviously. It saved my life, having that open communication. People make major changes in their lives just by attending one retreat or workshop. I think with kids it goes back to that seed being planted.

M: And the space being created to have that moment, that experience together. That’s the magic. We talk about “What’s the magic?” It’s feeling not alone and feeling the connection and having that experience together.

Visit www.hopeandhale.com for information on upcoming retreats and workshops.